Interview of THE SPECIAL REPRESENTATIVE OF THE SECRETARY-GENERAL, VOLKER PERTHES, with Radio Dabanga

10 Sep 2022

Interview of THE SPECIAL REPRESENTATIVE OF THE SECRETARY-GENERAL, VOLKER PERTHES, with Radio Dabanga

لقاء الممثل الخاص للأمين العالم للأمم المتحدة للسودان فولكر بيرتيس مع راديو دبنقا

Host Hussein Saad: Welcome to this episode in which we host Mr. Volker Perthes, the Special Representative of the Secretary-General to Sudan, to discuss the most important political events in the Sudanese arena through the proposed initiatives. Welcome, Mr. Volker.

Volker Perthes: Welcome, Mr. Hussein.

Hussein Saad: Mr. Volker, first, how do you read the political scene, and what is your vision for the many initiatives put forward?

Volker Perthes: The political scene is complicated, and you understand it better than I do, as a Sudanese living in this country. It is not the first time that the political scene has become complicated. There were political conflicts and differences before the coup of 25 October last year, but the problems have become even worse after the coup; and the political crisis became bigger and deeper. The economic, security and social situation throughout the country has been affected by the coup.

Last July, the military component announced its withdrawal from the political scene and from the talks with the civilians. We, as UNITAMS and as a Trilateral Mechanism, were not very happy about the withdrawal of the military component from the talks. But, at the same time, we must acknowledge that the announcement on the military’s withdrawal from the political scene launched a new dynamic among civilians. Just as you said, Mr. Hussein, several initiatives have been put forward for dialogue or talks between different civilian forces. Of course, one of the important events was the meeting held under the umbrella of the Sudanese Bar Association, which was attended by a wide range of political and civilian forces, where a serious discussion has begun between the parties. Of course, some withdrew from this dialogue later.

We have seen many initiatives from several political forces. At this stage, we are encouraging all these initiatives and all parties to embark on a dialogue among themselves and not refuse to sit with one another.

Hussein Saad: Mr. Volker, there is a very strong scepticism about the role of the trilateral initiative. Some doubters are questioning the presence of the AU and IGAD, and they say AU and IGAD have weekend the UN mission and paralysed it. On this particular matter they accuse the AU and IGAD of siding with the military. What is your comment?

Volker Perthes: First thing, there is no such thing as trilateral initiative; it is the Trilateral Mechanism. We do not have an initiative. I mean we do not have initiatives for the Sudanese parties or the civilian parties. 

Of course, there are some people who accuse the African Union, there are others who accuse UNITAMS, but whoever accuses the African Union, then it is better they speak to the African Union and not with us. The African Union and IGAD are our partners in the Trilateral Mechanism, and we work together to achieve one strategic goal, which is the return of Sudan to constitutional arrangements and to a civilian-led transitional path towards democracy. We fully agree with our brothers and friends in the African Union and IGAD on this goal. To evidence this, the African Union delegation in Sudan has a very clear mandate from the African Peace and Security Council, which suspended Sudan’s membership in the African Union. Sudan's full rights in the African Union are linked to Sudan's return to the path of a civilian-led transition towards democracy. Of course, we have different views among us about this or that step. But we agree on the strategic goals and cooperate with each other in a very good manner.

Hussein Saad: Mr. Volker, there are also accusations that the head of the UN mission is siding with one of the parties. What do you think?

Volker Perthes: True, these accusations exist. The last question you asked about the accusations against the African Union; we face similar accusations. It is a normal thing that every mediator or facilitator faces. To some extent, it is part of the mediation or negotiation process: that the negotiating parties or components who have an interest in the negotiations take an offensive position and accuse the mediator or facilitator of siding with the other party. This is normal, and it is not the first time we encounter this in a negotiation, mediation or facilitation process. The parties that accuse the mediator or facilitator of siding with the other side have a goal or an interest in bringing the mediator closer to their side of things. We do not blame anyone for these accusations. But, in reality, they (the accusations) are not true. What is true is that we are not neutral when it comes to the values ​​of the United Nations: human rights, peace, and sustainable development, which is closely linked to human rights, rule of law, etc. We are not neutral with regard to these values ​​and with regard to our mandate from the Security Council to support the political transition towards civilian-led democracy. We do not have to be neutral, but we are not aligned with a particular political party or certain negotiating party. All of the civil components have legitimacy and must play a role. There is no bias towards a particular party, or a particular person. May be there are some people I know more because of their work in the previous government as we worked with them during their tenures as ministers. But we also know those who were outside the government at the time, and we do respect them just the same.

Hussein Saad: How do you see your relationship with the military component after the coup? What does this relationship look like?

Volker Perthes: Of course, we have a relationship with the military component, whether it was before the coup or after it. The military component was a partner in the government before the coup, and we had a normal relationship with the then Prime Minister and the Sovereign Council.  During the period of the Prime Minister's house arrest, we were trying to mediate to some extent between the President of the Sovereign Council and the Prime Minister, and we visited the Prime Minister during his detention. However, after the Prime Minister’s resignation, only the military component remained in authority to oversee a government that is not complete or fully functional, with appointed ministers who are not fully mandated. So, it is natural for us as a United Nations’ mission to have a sustained relationship with the authority in any country, including the military component in Sudan. So, we have been meeting the military component and the President of the Sovereign Council more frequently as of late than we did before October 25. Because they are now the effective authority in the country. Without discussions with them, we cannot make any progress. They have the power, and they are the ones who are currently deciding the political, economic and social steps in Sudan. If we want to make an impact or to provide a service to the country, we must talk or cooperate with the de facto authorities.

Hussein Saad: Mr. Volker, citizens outside Khartoum also accuse the mission of being a central mission in Khartoum and not concerned with their problems and issues. What is your response to that?

Volker Perthes: We respect these criticisms. It is true that we cannot be present in the same degree and with the same number of people as we are in the capital, but we have offices in Darfur and Kordofan, and this year we opened an office in Port Sudan. We will open more offices. The number of mission personnel is very limited. There are currently only 220 UNITAMS Staff in Sudan, and I know that people, especially in Darfur, have become accustomed to a very large UN mission. UNAMID was present until last year with more than 10,000 personnel; we do not have this number. But we are present, and we cooperate with the local authorities and with civil society and youth in Darfur and South Kordofan and in the East. I hope that the mission had greater human resources. I explained earlier that we are a very small mission with big tasks. The annual funding of UNAMID was estimated at one billion and 200 thousand dollars in 2020. When UNITAMS started in 2021, it started with an estimated funding of $30 million.  While UNAMID had more than 10,000 policemen or military personnel, UNITAMS has only 21 policemen working on training the Sudanese police in the field of human rights.

Hussein Saad: In these same states, Mr. Volker, what is your view of the violent tribal conflicts that took place?

Volker Perthes:  First of all, the conflicts are not always tribal, as I understand them. There is a tribal element in conflicts, and certainly there are tribal differences. But it seems to me that many of these conflicts - and I may be wrong, and you can correct me if I am wrong- that many of these conflicts have a broader dimension to them than tribalism, meaning that there is a conflict over the land and some of these conflicts are politicized. There is also an important element in these conflicts, which, in my estimation, is the absence of the state.  If there was a state that exists with security, social, economic, health and educational services, this would have had a positive impact on coexistence or the willingness of citizens or tribes to co-exist peacefully with one another. But in the absence of the state and in the absence of security, education and health services for all, people resort to tribes or clans, which increases the tension that may already exist between pastoralists and farmers. You as Sudanese know well through history that there are ways to deal with the differences between the pastoralists and farmers to resolve these conflicts, but this requires an effective state and a credible authority.

Hussein Saad: Yes, Mr. Volker, the next question is not far from the previous one, about the peaceful demonstrations that have always been confronted with violence.

Volker Perthes: Right

Hussein Saad: And the use of live ammunition and the repeated injuries of demonstrators, as well as the arrests of revolutionaries and the escalation of human rights violations with a complete absence of investigation and accountability. How does the mission view this matter?

Volker Perthes: Since October 25 onwards, we have been following these events and we have condemned the excessive use of force, including the use of live ammunition against demonstrators during protests. We have been demanding the release of detainees. And we succeeded, to some extent, and I say here, to some extent. When the detainees were released, new wave of arrests began, and we asked again for their release. The mission’s human rights group, and the human rights organization of the United Nations work on a daily basis with regard to the arrest cases, and they visit detainees in prisons. In all the briefings of the Security Council or the periodic briefings of the office of the United Nations’ Human Rights Council, we inform the world and the international community about what is happening in the country. At the same time, we work with the authorities and try to convince them to change the behaviour of using violence and the excessive use of force. I say here again that we do not have executive authority, but we encourage sometimes, condemn sometimes, and even commend sometimes.  We sometimes work with the police on trainings of trainers on how to deal in a civilized manner with processions and demonstrators, for example.

Hussein Saad: Mr. Volker, we at Dabanga Radio and TV had given our special audience of readers and listeners the opportunity to ask you few questions. We received more than 100 questions through various groups on Facebook, WhatsApp, Twitter, and groups for Dabanga research, and also in the special telephone number of Dabanga Radio and TV, all addressed to you. We picked only a few due to time constraints.

We have a question from the citizen Hassan Khalil Muhammad Ali from the Abu Jubeiha area in South Kordofan. His question is: “what is the next step for the UN mission in the event that the Sudanese government does not respond to the calls for the return to a democratic path and civilian rule in light of the threat to hold early elections? Is Sudan ready to hold these elections? What is the requirement for elections?”

Volker Perthes: That is a smart question, but it's a very hypothetical question, and in principle I don't deal with assumptions about the future, so I can't answer the question about what I should do If this thing happens or that one. But let me answer differently- and the citizen may be dissatisfied with this answer - but we are working on a consensual solution that will bring Sudan back to the right path of democratic transition with a civilian leadership, and at the end of the transitional period - which may be in 18, 24 or 30 months, according to what the Sudanese agree upon - at the end of this transitional period there must be sound and fair elections and we are fully prepared to support the electoral process and its preparations, including training of candidates, especially female and young candidates, so that these elections reflect the Sudan of today and not the Sudan of the past.  We know that 70% of the Sudanese people are young, so we will focus a lot on training of young male and female candidates.

Hussein Saad: The resistance committees have been working on unifying the charters that were put forward recently. Will the mission support the unification of the resistance committees?

Volker Perthes: No, we will not support any one particular party. But we do have a very positive vision for any attempt to unite the civilian forces and even (of any attempts of unification) between civilians and the military component. So, if the resistance committees agree with each other on one charter instead of multiple charters, we will welcome that. But we do not support any one party in this equation. We support the civilians and the Sudanese in general to reach consensus among themselves rather than one party.

Hussein Saad: What message would you like to send to the citizens in the conflict areas in Darfur, the Blue Nile and eastern Sudan, in the dams’ areas, especially people who are affected by the recent torrential rains and floods?

Volker Perthes:  I hope that all Sudanese men and women, especially those who work in politics and have a role in society, that they realize that the time has come to put the country's interest above personal, factional, tribal, partisan, regional interests, etc. The country is on the verge of an economic and security collapse. and if everyone does not collaborate to save this country from collapse, we will see things developing in an unacceptable way. So, I call on everyone to cooperate with each other regardless of the differences, viewpoints and different interests of groups and parties.

As for the citizens, especially in areas that have emerged from conflict or areas affected by natural disasters, I say to them that we, in the United Nations can, to the best of our ability help and support their efforts, but the capabilities of the United Nations are also limited.

 

لقاء الممثل الخاص للأمين العالم للأمم المتحدة للسودان فولكر بيرتيس مع راديو دبنقا "الجزء الثاني"

Hello and welcome, Radio Dabanga listeners, to our episode of Sudan today, on Thursday, 8 September 2022. In today’s episode, we will present to you the second part of the exclusive interview with the head of the UNITAMS mission and the Special Representative of the United Nations Secretary-General to Sudan, Volker Perthes. The interview focused on several issues on the Sudanese arena, including issues of the IDPs and refugees, issues of democratic transition, as well as his responses to some of the questions posed by Radio Dabanga listeners through its various platforms.

Hussein Saad: There has been no progress in merging forces and dissolving militias. What is your vision for solving this dilemma?

Volker Perthes: I mean, as I said and as you have mentioned, the progress in implementing the security dimension of the Juba Agreement has experienced a huge delay, an unacceptable delay to some extent. What we have started on our side after the issuance of the decree of the President of the Sovereign Council is the implementation of the establishment of a ceasefire committee or committees. However, there is, of course, another step that must be taken, which is the establishment of a joint force to maintain peace and to protect citizens and civilians. Of course, we know that 2,000 troops from the armed movements, the partners of peace, have been trained. Until now, these elements whose graduation ceremony took place in the beginning of this year’s summer, must establish the joint force to maintain peace and protect citizens and civilians. So far, these elements have not been deployed to the sites of conflict, for example. We believe that it is time to use this force, but this of course requires next steps according to the Juba Agreement. For example, this force includes a force from the movements of the peace partners and a regular force. So far, we have contributed to the training of this force in the field of human rights and international humanitarian laws. We do not train in the use of weapons or cars, but in the field of human rights. But there is a delay in their deployment to the necessary hot spots.

Hussein Saad: Yes, Mr. Volker, UNITAMS is chairing the Permanent Ceasefire Committee. But, despite that, killing and displacement are continuing in Darfur. And the mission stops at condemning and issuing statements condemning this killing. Compared to the previous mission, UNAMID, as you said, was at least verifying and identifying culprits and the responsible people, what is the mission's role with regard to the protection of civilians?

Volker Perthes: Look, the previous mission had a mandate of executive powers to respond; it had a peacekeeping force. We do not have a peacekeeping force; we do not have any executive powers; we do not have powers. We have a mandate to support the state in implementing the agreements it has signed or approved, in implementing the Constitutional Document, in supporting the political transition, and in supporting the mobilization of economic resources, but we do not have executive powers. This is something that we must understand. This means we cannot do any sovereign tasks that are utterly under the sovereign jurisdiction of the state. The protection of citizens and civilians is originally the function of any self-respecting state. This is the job of the state. Why do we have states? I mean, countries are not only there to deal with each other according in the area of international relations. The most important function of the state is to protect citizens and civilians in the country. Other functions of the state flow from there, such as education, health, etc. The state is tasked with protecting civilians and there is no international mission that can replace the state.

We, as UNITAMS, are mandated to support the state in these tasks with consultations, advice, training, etc. You said more than once that we use only the most powerful weapon that we have, which is words. We speak, we condemn, we encourage, we commend, we give briefings, and brief the Security Council.

If we want to use one word, this is the only weapon; and the strongest weapon that I have is my word, my voice, my reports, my briefings, my condemnations, my encouragement, etc.

Of course, there are many people who say that this is not enough, but in the end countries and officials in countries hear what is being said in the Security Council and what is discussed in the Security Council. The word of the United Nations and the word of the international community certainly has an impact. At the same time, we are doing something on the ground.  We are not only talking, but we also chair the Permanent Ceasefire Committee, we conduct trainings for trainers for the police, we do trainings for women in civil society. In the future, in preparation for the elections, we will do training for parties and candidates. That means we will do effective work on the ground.

Of course, we as the UNITAMS are not alone. Other UN agencies like UNICEF, UNDP and the World Food Programme are providing real services to the citizens and civilians in this country. But, let me say that even what I mentioned may not be welcome.  

We as the United Nations are not here to be an alternative for the state. There are countries in this part of the world that rely a lot on the United Nations, and they say that it is good to let the United Nations feed our citizens. This is not our goal. At the end of the day, the United Nations’ agencies want to help the Sudanese to achieve sustainable development. But currently almost a third of the population of Sudan needs food assistance, for example. This should not be the case in a country that is already rich with agricultural lands, but despite Sudan’s richness in water, land, people and agriculture, one-third of the citizens need assistance. This is an abnormal situation. In the future, this scene must be reviewed.

Hussein Saad: Mr. Volker, justice is one of the slogans of the December revolution, but the file of the transitional justice has not seen any progress yet. The results of the investigations have not been out and there has been no progress in trial of suspects and even the persons who are wanted have not been extradited to the international Criminal Court in The Hague. How does the mission view this?  What is the role the mission is supposed to play according to its mandate and the proposals it presents in this aspect?

Volker Perthes: The mandate of the mission is clear in resolutions of the Security Council. We will support any genuine transitional justice. We will support these processes with consultations and advice, the so-called technical support or technical assistance. At the same time, of course, we cooperate with the international Criminal Court in The Hague. The court is not part of the United Nations, but we have close cooperation with the ICC.

As you know, the ICC General Prosecutor came and visited Sudan for the second time, approximately two weeks ago. He had extensive communications with the authorities about cooperation in cases with the Criminal Court in The Hague. He made few demands, and we support his demands for full cooperation. Of course, Ali Kushayb is now in The Hague and other defendants are in prison here in Sudan.

I think that the ICC General Prosecutor discussed with the authorities various possibilities to put them (the suspects in Sudanese custody) on trial, but this must be answered by him, not me. I think that the most important question, besides what is happening or what will be expected in the future in The Hague, is transitional justice for all other cases.

We are not only talking about 4 or 5 people, but we are also talking about process with deep social roots that requires broad social cooperation for transitional justice. We, especially as the United Nations, can help bring examples and experiences from states that have gone through this experience. South Africa, for example, has gone through a very successful process in transitional justice. Rwanda also has experience in this field. Even countries outside Africa, like Colombia, has a rich experience in transitional justice.

I hope that after the success of the political process and finding a political solution, God willing, that the first tasks of a new transitional government is the issue of the transitional justice. If there is a political agreement, for sure, we will work for this goal.  There is consensus about establishing the Transitional Justice Commission as the first task of the new government.

Hussein Saad: The citizens of Darfur are still displaced in the displacement camps despite the signing of Juba Peace Agreement (JPA), which changed nothing regarding the repatriation of the displaced people to their areas of origin as well as compensating them. These were the key points of JPA. what has been accomplished was nomination or recruitment of parties of the JPA in government posts, how does the mission view this?

Volker Perthes: I agree with what you said about the implementation of JPA. We believe that it should be implemented. Implementation of almost everything has been delayed, a matter which led to recruitment of people in senior positions, like ministers, governors, or members of the Sovereign Council. This is true. From the beginning, we have been calling and demanding the implementation of JPA in all its dimensions, not just recruitment in civil service posts, so to speak.

We have started to work from our side in the first place on the implementation of the security arrangements. We work and cooperate with the parties to the JPA, or what is called the peace partners and the regular forces. We have been cooperating with them, and we are still cooperating with them, in establishing and operating the Permanent Ceasefire Committee in Darfur.

This committee is an institution that works on investigating the violations of the cease-fire agreement. This is the beginning of the implementation of the security dimension and security arrangements in the Juba Agreement. There are other very important elements. If we talk about the return of refugees or displaced persons to their villages, this requires, according to my understanding, the resolution of the issue of land and Hawakir (lands of tribes). This requires the establishment of the Land Commission, the Refugee Commission, etc., the DDR Commission in Darfur. But we, as a mission, cannot establish such commissions. This is a sovereign task of the state. We can help such institutions, but we cannot establish them.

Regarding the Permanent Ceasefire Committee, in the summer of last year, the President of the Sovereign Council issued some decrees to establish this committee and the subcommittees of the Permanent Ceasefire Committee in Darfur. According to these decrees and according to the Juba Agreement, UNITAMS chairs these committees.

Hussein Saad: Mr. Volker, we at Dabanga Radio and TV, received more than 100 questions addressed to you, from groups on Facebook, WhatsApp and Twitter, and groups for Dabanga research, and via the telephone number of Radio and TV Dabanga. Due to time constrain we chose just a few.  

We have a question from the citizen, Mohamed Abdel-Ghani Sabel, he says to you: Do you expect in the coming days or months that Sudan will be put under Chapter VII?

Volker Perthes:  I am sorry that I cannot give you an answer for this question, except by pointing out that the mandate of the mission or any mission in Sudan is a subject decided by the Security Council. I am an employee of the United Nations who works under the mandate of the Security Council. The member states in the Security Council do not like the representative of the Secretary-General to tell them what to do. No, this is the business of the Security Council. The Security Council will decide the mandate, or re-authorize the mission as it is, or change the mandate.

Hussein Saad: Yes, the last question. Why is the grave silence of Office of the Human Rights Commission, which is the main body of the United Nations, regarding the horrific violations that are taking place in Sudan, especially after the coup of 25 October?  It is under your administration as the top representative of the Secretary-General in Sudan.

Volker Perthes: I disagree with the citizen who asked this question. There is no silence from the human rights organization, UNITAMS or our department that works on human rights (within the mission). On the contrary, there are continuous briefings to the Security council. There is no single briefing or report of the Secretary-General of the United Nations in the Security Council without a reminder on the issue of human rights or without reference to violations or without a request to address this situation and stop the human rights violations.

The human rights organization or the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights took an extra step by designated Adama Dieng as an expert on human rights in Sudan. He visited Sudan twice and he presented his reports to the UN Human Rights Council in Geneva, and he will come again and give his briefing to the international community in Geneva. I mean, you cannot talk about silence of the international community. We verify and inform the international community, and we also try to work on the ground, for example, by visiting prisons and prisoners. This happens without much noise, and we do not take media (television) with us when we go. If we try, we will not be able to visit them, but this matter continues.